The Amiyya vs. Fusha Debate is on
MarHaba,
The debate is on. What do you think about the teaching and learning of colloquial Arabic vs. Modern Standard Arabic? When should a student learn colloquial? There are some universities in the US that teach both concurrently - though they are the exception. Most universities teach only Fusha for the first 2 years at least.
I am in the minority. I think, for reasons I shall post sometime, that students ought to learn colloquial and MSA at the same time. How about you? I have asked many students and many professors. This is "the" question in US Arabic academia. Let me know your thoughts.
Jeremy
posted by Jeremy Palmer @ 22:34
15 comments
15 Comments:
You need both - but trying to learn both at the same time is difficult. I have started with MSA some years ago, and found its grammar absolutely fascinating. Despite some progress it is difficult to learn how to hold a proper conversation. I tried to practice my acquired skills with a goldsmith in Aleppo - only to be told "ah yes, you speak like those foreign diplomats". However, learning the [Syrian] dialect is difficult without a native speaker, especially since the exact spelling of dialect words is not always easy. Best would be to spend some time in the country.
Hi!
Yes, you need both in order for you to find what you've learnt useful! Fusha is great for understanding Arabic literature and general media articles.
I am going to Syria this December for six weeks to learn how to speak Arabic; whether this will entail picking up Ammiyah or using my existing fusha skills is yet to be seen.
I personally think learning fusha first to familiarise yourself with grammar and deep knowledge of syntax e.t.c is best as it gives you a great grounding to learn anything afterwards. I think I would have found it too confusing to learn both at the same time ...
Learning both is more challenging and helps you to put fusha in a real perspective.It's correct to be aware since the beginning of the relations between standard and colloquials and the switching from one to another. Of course this makes a sense if you have the chance to spend some years full immersed in a specific country.
Ciao ! Elisabetta
Greetings,
I will have to disagree with Gary B, for those of us who are practising sunee/salafee muslims then al-Fushaa is sufficient enough.
Many of the brothers who studied in the Islamic Universities in Saudi or even in Dar-ul-Hadeeth in Dimaaj (a village in Sa'dah, Yemen), got along just fine without having to learn any "Ammiyyah".
Learning and speaking al-Fushaa sets you apart from other Arabic speakers and even the Arabs view you differently when you speak to them in the language of the Quraan.
C'mon I havent met one Arab who insisted that I use mush instead of laysa, or hadhirtak instead of anta.
Aboo Imraan al-Mekseekee
It is a shame to the Ammiya--Fusha debate so one-sided and poorly understood. Most people that advocate fusha do so because of an uninformed premise that assumes there is in fact a great difference between the Arabic spoken among Arabs and the language of the media and written communication. People use the religious and political ideologies to advocate fuhsa as the "correct" or useful Arabic and the only Arabic that is understood everywhere. Pan-Arab nationalism tells us to learn fusha because it binds Arabs together with a common language, a reaction to Western colonialism perhaps and the preceived (or in fact real) attempt of the West to divide the Arab people. Religious followers tell us to learn fuhsa because it is the language of the Koran and the Prophet Mohammad. Fusha is beautiful, the Koran is beyond description, but when we're talking about achieveing fluency in Arabic, the most common approach is all wrong (in my opinion of course).
First, ammiya (roughly "slang") is an inaccurate term that innsults regional and national varieties of Arabic. I prefer the term lehge (dialect) or mahke (spoken). These are varieties that are used by all Arabs and they are ALWAYS the natural, first language of Arabic speakers - in other words, they learn it actively. Fusha is learned at a later age (usually 10 years or so) and is never active, always passive. Why as a foreigner should I set out immediately to master fusha, a passive language for native Arabs, and then attempt to take a rich and complex passive language and attempt to make it active. Why should I try to become better than native speakers (an impossible task, unless you dedicate years?) for the get-go when they in fact don't learn it until 10 years old? I advocate learning spoken Arabic intensively for up to six months and to become fluent in amiyya, making it a natural acquistion and beginning to understand Arabic and develop a intuitive feeling for the language. Only then will you really own it, only then will it truly be yours. Then move to fusha, yes. It is a beautiful and rich langauge and once your amiyya is fluent, a transition to fusha will be smooth.
As for what Arabic to learn, I recommend Syrian. No matter what anyone tells you, these dialects are understood. Egyptians can communicate with Syrians/Lebanese/Palestinians with almost no trouble at all. Syrian programs and Egyptian movies are seen throughout the Arab world and people understand it. You will rarely find programs completely in fusha - most often they use a "shared Arabic", a mix of the spoken and the written. I have learned Syrian Arabic and had conversations in amiyya with Iraqis, Jordanians, Palestinians, Lebanese, Saudis and Yemenis with ease. The rest I have yet to meet.
My teacher in Damascus writes about this more on his website: www.hmaxos.com
I have been studying Arabic (Syrian spoken) for three months now and I have surpassed the speaking abilities of all the foreigners I know, most of which have studied Arabic for two to three years. I get yelled at all the time about fusha, people call me crazy, but when it comes down to it: I speak Arabic, I conduct my entire life in Arabic and they don't. That's the shame.
this kind of debate is not limited to arabic learning. every language has, to some extent, a gap between standard and colloquial english. try sticking a foreign phd student at an american university in a kitchen in a restaurant with american teenagers.
of course the more angles you get on a language, the better -- though of course you are better off with a "guide" to situate the learner and prioritize.
Even though I complain in class about learning Egyptian colloquial, I think it's definitely important to learn fusha along with a dialect. My belief is that no average person can become proficient in a language without living in a place where s/he is immersed in the language, and one can't live in an Arabic speaking country and learn without speaking a dialect. The variety of dialects is a problem because you never know where you'll decide to go (unless your mind is set), but that's not a problem that can be changed. I will admit to wishing, however, that fusha was the only part of Arabic used, in writing or speech!
The complaint I have in my own class is that we are made to write and read Egyptian on tests. I understand why it must be written in order to learn vocabular and practice reading dialogues out loud, but there is no need for writing it in homework and tests, in my opinion. Any testing should be done orally. Also, I find myself getting vocab and conjugations for fusha and Egpytian mixed up. I'd like them to be taught side by side almost, so that I can clearly see conjugations for one juxtaposed to another.
I do feel both should be taught, but the way they are taught (which to many students feels like two completely different languages) needs to be reconsidered.
What's a passionate debate! I'm studying arabic and I don't know why I should learn a dialect at the moment: The arabic that is official language of the United Nations is MSA; I'm muslim and the arabic of the Qoran is what I'm interested in. MSA is the closest to it. With the MSA I can also read the newspapers. In my environment, I meet with people from Maghreb, Middle East... and they all seem to speak a diffent arabic (totaly confusing for a learner). And most of them can talk if not MSA, English or French with me. Also I'm so confused by the debate which is often biased (e.g. what a good reason for me to learn Syrian and not Tunisian if I'm more interest in Tunisia) that I don't bother to learn any dialect until I decide to go to one of the arabic countries for a long period of time. Once there I'll use my MSA at first (I'm not affraid of locals laughing at me because they know nothing of my own mother tongue! I don't want to pretend to be an Arab!) and then learn the local dialect. Juste another perpective from a person not in the US and not in an arabic country but interested in the arabic language.
Now one question: How does a Morrocan communicate with an Iraqi in Arabic? Do they speak in English or French that is if they both know those foreign languages. Or do they use Syran or Egyptian and what would they use a third Arabic language? At any rate I would be interested in knowing the answer.
My teacher taught them concurrently in Arabic 101 and it really stressed me out--I think they should both be taught, but one at a time!
If I were to wager a guess at why, I’d say that users don’t “browse” forms. The interaction style users engage in with forms is different, and requires its own study and design best practices.
study abroad
Fus7a is never a language that you will need to speak. It is only a language that u will need to learn to read and only understand. I grew up speaking algerian arabic and egyptian arabic from my parents, but i never learned fus7a. When i watch arabic tv, fus7a is spoken alot and i understand it. when its written, it often looks like dialect written, but with a slightly different vocabulary (3aayez vs yeriid vs yebgha vs me7taaj) all are fus7a words but can be seen as slang because of the constant use in colloquial arabic. to me fus7a and dialect are the same, but u will never see me speaking in cases, or using the subjunctive.. just not used anymore...
In addition, if there is a moroccan speaking to an iraqi, usually they both switch their speech to as close to egyptian arabic as possible becuase using egyptian guarantees intelligibility. my best friend is iraqi, and before i could speak iraqi arabic, we used to speak exclusively egyptian. if youre iraqi and speaking to a saudi, usually you revert ur arabic to as close to emiraati arabic as possible. In the maghrib, usually people will try to speak as algerian as possible, but all maghribi dialects are mutually intelligible. one must also remeber that outside cairo, the egyptian arabic is VERY similar to maghribi arabic.
I'm looking to learn arabic, preferably from syria. I'm looking for a good place that offers good full immersion program that teaches msa and other. Anyone know of any good place?
Formal learning should focus on fusha, as a common language will bridge gaps and unite muslims. Learning dialects will only breed nationalism.
I used to be embarassed in the company of arabs because as a muslim who was striving hard to learn arabic,I could hardly understand any conversation amongst the arabs. I don't feel embarassed anymore because now I understand that arabs hardly use "the language of Islam" so it makes most of them just like any other race in the muslim world and not the absolute custodians of Islam as they once were. If you want to practise speaking fusha then do it amongst non-arabs and arabs with Islamic (as opposed to nationalist) identity. Fusha is language of Islam & muslims so true muslims will strive to master it and not waste time with dialects.
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